Guys - I really hate to be a pain to y'all but those mud holes are not part of the USFS road that is open to vehicular travel. I work very hard to keep our roads and trails open to off road traffic and am even involved on the litigation side and have been for years. I put in many long and unpaid hours on this front and when people venture off of the designated roads and trails into areas like this it makes it even harder to keep the legal areas open.
Now with that being said I understand there is not any signage present which can make it difficult to know what is open and what is not. The USFS stance is if a road or trail is open to motorized traffic then it will be shown on one of the USFS Motor Vehicle Use Maps which can be found HERE.
Below is also a screen shot of the MVUM (Motor Vehicle Use Map) of the Hurricane Creek Area that I pulled from the MVUM today, 4/6/12. Only the road is open. Side routes are not open.
I'm happy to help anyone determine what roads and trails are open to motorized travel but PLEASE stay on legal, open, and designated routes.
bigdogdewey2 ADMINISTRATOR
Posts : 3697 Points : 8682 Join date : 2011-08-30 Age : 56 Location : High Point, NC
yeah..lookin at that map...i couldnt tell where anything is except where tennessee is on tat map....doent present me with any good or pertinent information if the average guy tried to follow or read that map there is no wonder those mudholes are getting used...and i would bet that 90%+ of those SR#### are not even marked on the road or ground or signs in any way shape or form...
bigdogdewey2 ADMINISTRATOR
Posts : 3697 Points : 8682 Join date : 2011-08-30 Age : 56 Location : High Point, NC
im not trying to be rude or confrontational at all but im just saying that if i was to go to any one of those roads...more than likely it will not be marked and if it is it will probably not be marked so that you know that you are on it the entire way...my guess is that if people didnt want drivers on certain areas and wanted to keep specific areas off limits then they would do it...if those mud holes are "off limits" then i would assume that someone including the State would do something about getting it marked as off limits...
personally i am all for trying to ride in the right places as it obviously promotes good will with private land owners and the State...i agree with staying on the right areas and staying out of the areas that could cause problems...
Southeast Overland VENDOR - SEO
Posts : 459 Points : 5243 Join date : 2012-01-18 Age : 45 Location : Seneca, SC
I'm not being rude or confrontational either but the law is the law and I do spend countless hours and dollars to keep roads and trails open. Each hour I spend pro bono is an hour I cannot spend on a billable project and is money out of my pocket. That is one of several reasons I try very hard to educate everyone on what is legal and what is not. All I'm doing is trying to educate everyone.
It is each person's personal responsibility to ensure they are on an legal trail or road. Download one of the USFS MVUMs and read the text on the map - that is what the USFS says. You won't be able to argue with a Ranger. You'll get a ticket and depending on the severity of the infraction you could have your vehicle towed. It has happened locally.
Think of it this way. Routes open to vehicular travel by the USFS are just that, they are routes. They are not open play areas with mud holes, side route hill climbs etc. 99.9% of the time the legal route is going to be the narrow path in front of you, not the side trails, mud holes, and hill climbs. I think we
I agree that there is little to no signage and it would be nice if the mud holes were blocked off but that is not the case. I've even attempted to work with the USFS on numerous occasions to place signage with little to no response or cooperation which is disheartening but still does not present an excuse to be off trail. The USFS has a limited budget for road and trail maintenance. When the amount of maintenance is more than what they can provide then many times roads and trails are closed. It is simply not feasible for the USFS to mark every bit of road and trail.
What I recommend is to download and print the MVUM for the area you want to explore, and then compare it to a map book like the DeLorme Gazetteer. I carry a Gazetteer for every state along with the MVUMs for the USFS forests I'll be. Heck, may of us have GPS units in our trucks which provide another layer of data.
Seeing how heavily involved I am with this sort of thing - anyone is welcome to contact me if they have questions about the legality of a trail or path.
Yes, it is difficult to follow the MVUMs as they are a poor cartographic product (I'm a professional cartographer also) but we still have the responsibility to stay on designated routes - however hard they maybe to follow. USFS roads and trails are just that, roads and trails, not a spiderweb of areas open to wheeling. I think I've already addressed the mud holes on Hurricane Creek as being illegal but I don't have time now to find that thread and post. It should be around here somewhere.
smoky cruiser Tail Gunner
Posts : 656 Points : 5487 Join date : 2012-01-19 Age : 44 Location : weaverville nc
I ran into a ranger out there and he was parked at the mud holes. He told me the side trail was for camping and they didn't close the mudholes because it was giving the reds some thing to tear up so the rest of the trail and creeks got bothered less. So I'm going with his rational thought process. I love hurricane creek. I respect our North Carolina trails, and all trails at a high level. The mudholes are not at any risk of eroding the surrounding areas at all. The worst impact on that whole trail is the off camber sections above the creeks. The trails is eroding into the creeks and leaching leaking fluids into the creek. Any how I wont be hitting that mud hole any more as some one with some 44 plus chewed the middle of that hole I was stuck in to goner status. I fully respect our playgrounds. I always stop and pick up others trash metal items shell casings, I tread lightly and stay off marked private/marked state or federal property. I don't mess or circumnavigate gates ever. I also speak to the Local rangers at any chance I get to understand as clearly as it gets what/and where I can drive camp fish hunt etc. If the rangers give the go ahead then thats the final word in my opinion. No signs no gates and a clear well used trail well thats enough for me.
If the rangers give the go ahead then thats the final word in my opinion. No signs no gates and a clear well used trail well thats enough for me.
Many people took that same approach who ran the Cullowhee trails and many of them are now closed. Some legal routes were less well used and traveled than the illegal trails - so someone using the above reasoning was contributing to trail closures. It was even reported to me that a ranger came up to one of the balds and told a group that was camping there that it was fine if they were there. Not long after many of the trails were closed and a major reason was "people driving off the designated routes." I was involved in trying to keep the trails open at Cullowhee. I spent a lot of time and money working on that situation just to see a bunch of closures due to "people driving off designated routes."
Here is something I would hope would mean something. The first is from the USFS Pisgah Nat'l Forest MVUM which covers the Hurricane Creek Area.
The second is directly from the NC USFS MVUM webpage.
It is pretty clear that by law you are supposed to stay on designated routes. I understand that rangers have in the past and will continue to say otherwise in certain situations, but when it comes down to an administrator, or even a judge, they will defer to the written law to prosecute and/or to justify closures.
Guys - as I've said I've been involved a lot with working to keep trails open. I've seen many trails close. Hurricane Creek is going the same way as Cullowhee. I would have to say that Cullowhee got popular over about a 5-8 year or so period and then got the hammer. I see Hurricane Creek going the same way. Tank traps go up, gates go in, and private property owners end up being the only ones with a key besides official personnel. I'm not trying to lecture anyone, but I am telling it like it is from a professional who intimately involved.
Southeast Overland VENDOR - SEO
Posts : 459 Points : 5243 Join date : 2012-01-18 Age : 45 Location : Seneca, SC
yeah..lookin at that map...i couldnt tell where anything is except where tennessee is on tat map..
LOL, me too. I was looking at the map and said, "ok, there is Tennessee. Now what." lol
The MVUMs are a very poor cartographic product. There is no arguing that. That is why I take the MVUMs, compare them to a DeLorme Gazetteer, highlight in the Gazetteer the legal USFS routes I want to travel, then put the MVUM away.
bigdogdewey2 ADMINISTRATOR
Posts : 3697 Points : 8682 Join date : 2011-08-30 Age : 56 Location : High Point, NC
ok so where does one get the Delorme Gazetteer?? and what does it cost? if you have them can we get copies from you ?? do u have enough for everyone?
I have DeLorme Gazetteers for several southeastern states. I have a bunch of copies for NC. I didn't want to say that earlier b/c I didn't want to sound like a sales pitch. A link to them on the Southeast Overland WEBSTORE is HERE. I'll bring them also to the truck show later this month. Cost is $19.95 ea. I pay shipping on these/shipping is free.
David B ADMINISTRATOR
Posts : 2677 Points : 8483 Join date : 2011-05-01 Age : 52 Location : Wake Forest, NC
Thanks for all information Steve. We really appreciate it. We also appreciate all the work and effort the guys like you do to keep trails open. The stands right now shoe north carolina we have some very few places in which to wheel. TELLICO has been closed, Wheeling The OuterBanks is quickly disappearing... The last thing we want to do is give over sensitive environmentalists any more ammunition. As a group we really should be ambassadors of the offroad community. As a group we should all think like steve and want to fight to keep areas open, even if that means being a little extra cautious and listening to the professionals whenever they offer advice to us. We have a great group of responsible people here and we should be proud. I just think we all need to remember to stick to trails.
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: hurricane creek pics / footage Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:55 pm
David B wrote:
Thanks for all information Steve. We really appreciate it. We also appreciate all the work and effort the guys like you do to keep trails open. The stands right now shoe north carolina we have some very few places in which to wheel. TELLICO has been closed, Wheeling The OuterBanks is quickly disappearing... The last thing we want to do is give over sensitive environmentalists any more ammunition. As a group we really should be ambassadors of the offroad community. As a group we should all think like steve and want to fight to keep areas open, even if that means being a little extra cautious and listening to the professionals whenever they offer advice to us. We have a great group of responsible people here and we should be proud. I just think we all need to remember to stick to trails.
Thank you Steve for your work and explaination. I have never been on the trails above and look forward to doing it and doing it right!
Subject: Re: hurricane creek pics / footage Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:14 am
Steve, thank you for your hard work in this area. Land use is a big issue across the country. State and federal lands are closing all the time to us. We have no choice but to err on the side of restraint.
If you are not sure about a trail DON'T GO until you are sure. Unfortunately the spot light on land use is not on those that respect the land and the laws and treat the trails like their own property. The light shines on the mouth breathers of the off road community that have no concern for land and leave their trash behind.
They go where they want, do what they want and do and do not care how they impact an area. But hey, dont spit on the side walk in front of THEIR house. That would show disrespect!!
I grew up in a small town with lots of farms and open land. I also grew up riding dirt bikes with my buddies. My father drove me around to all the local land owners and had me get WRITTTEN PERMISSION from them to ride my dirt bike on their land. I promised to stay away from crops and any area the farmer specified. I carried these permission slips under the liner of my helmet and showed them to law enforcement if required.
I own land, not much but some. I do not want people on my land leaving it it worse condition than when they came. The state and Fed are the same way, only it is our land, yours and mine. Treat it like it is your own land and the odds are we will continue to have use of it in the future.
smoky cruiser Tail Gunner
Posts : 656 Points : 5487 Join date : 2012-01-19 Age : 44 Location : weaverville nc
Subject: Land use and Hurricane creek Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:21 pm
I'm all for proper land use and respecting private, and forest land rules. Again I never go out of bounds when they are marked, or if I know for a fact they are private. Even with my delorme which is still vague when your talking small fire roads etc. The mudholes are barely off the "legal" trail. Which I had no idea of. Apparently you know the trails and exact regulations better than the ranger who patrols Hurricane creek (seriously doubt it). I have been wheeling for over 16 years. I am one of the people that make the trails better to ride. In the last 6 years I've been in WNC I've toted out over 5,000 lbs of trash probably over 1,000 from Hurricane creek. One time we were out there I toted a third of a car carcass out on my xj roof, and six full 55 gallon bags of trash. Thats out of my own time which I cannot bill for either. My gas and my wear and tear on my rigs. From hot springs on the 421a trail we usually fill 3-4 bags, and clear the trail with chainsaws bc so many trees fall every year. They would have already permanently closed the gates if we weren't clearing it. The rangers say its ok then it is because they are the main ones that say this place is getting disrespected and we can't govern it. Cullowee had serious erosion problems, and the hunters were basically living out there cutting down trees building hunt camps shitting in the creeks etc. Completely different situation. But yes bleeding heart environmentalist are getting trails shut down and will continue to. I am a excellent steward, and respect no go zones. Show me a map that directly shows me that the mud holes are not part of the trail bc they are right there. It still baffles me that the rangers said it is ok and is legal! Why would they say that if it wasn't? I'm glad you do work to help keep these areas open. If you wanna police the use of public land then you should have been a cop or judge or ranger any of those careers would've been perfect. I ride where I know is legit and don't need to be told where to and where not to ride. I've never been citated or even had to be told by any official I was in the wrong area to be four wheeling. Thanks for your hard work but no sign, ranger a ok and a spot thats on the trail no worries bra
smoky cruiser Tail Gunner
Posts : 656 Points : 5487 Join date : 2012-01-19 Age : 44 Location : weaverville nc
Subject: mudholes Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:39 pm
As you can see the area with the mud holes has been open to use for well over 20 years. No one has ever put up a sign or gate or even an ounce of energy to stop people from using it. So I don't understand why you think I should not go there. The map you showed us is too small for you or any else to determine whether or not the mud holes are on it or not. I sure wouldn't go there if I thought it wasn't legit but it seems legit too me. Last time we were out there a whole group of jeepers which represented tread lightly stickers about 12 trucks were bogging the mud holes out. They also said that the area was legit. The mud holes are legit they are also in a zone which will never cause any more harm or damage run off erosion etc. The rest of the trail however does cause runoff even in the dryest of conditions, and all the creek crossings. If you are such a steward maybe you wouldn't be fording flooding creeks in your seo fj because that is horrible for the environment just saying not so cool and that could really tinkle of environmentalist enough to get that zone shut down.
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: hurricane creek pics / footage Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:17 pm
Guys take it easy here. I won't let this place become like the Blue Room where every discussion ends in arguments. I'm glad to say it's not like that.
This club stands behind doing things the right way and I'm proud to be apart of it and this forum. I hope to learn the right ways to trail ride.
smoky cruiser Tail Gunner
Posts : 656 Points : 5487 Join date : 2012-01-19 Age : 44 Location : weaverville nc
Subject: delorme Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:35 pm
They sell the delorme at walmart a great purchase you cant beat it unless you download more detailed and google earth stuff. I'm done with this topic in general all I wanted was to post some videos of me and a buddy having fun now the whole thing feels shitty wtf.javascript:emoticonp('')
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: hurricane creek pics / footage Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:42 pm
smoky cruiser wrote:
They sell the delorme at walmart a great purchase you cant beat it unless you download more detailed and google earth stuff. I'm done with this topic in general all I wanted was to post some videos of me and a buddy having fun now the whole thing feels shitty wtf.javascript:emoticonp('')
I hear you man. If the ranger says it is ok, it would hard to argue against it. I guess people could argue with it, but some people will always argue. Sounds like you have been a good steward of that trail and thats all you can really be.
Subject: Re: hurricane creek pics / footage Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:25 pm
Smokey Cruiser, if you took anything I stated personal that was not my intent. I do not know you or do I know what you do on private lands. I was speaking in general terms about all areas, not about you and your specific experience at Hurricane Creek.
Stan
bigdogdewey2 ADMINISTRATOR
Posts : 3697 Points : 8682 Join date : 2011-08-30 Age : 56 Location : High Point, NC
Subject: Re: hurricane creek pics / footage Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:18 pm
smoky cruiser wrote:
I'm all for proper land use and respecting private, and forest land rules. Again I never go out of bounds when they are marked, or if I know for a fact they are private. Even with my delorme which is still vague when your talking small fire roads etc. The mudholes are barely off the "legal" trail. Which I had no idea of. Apparently you know the trails and exact regulations better than the ranger who patrols Hurricane creek (seriously doubt it). I have been wheeling for over 16 years. I am one of the people that make the trails better to ride. In the last 6 years I've been in WNC I've toted out over 5,000 lbs of trash probably over 1,000 from Hurricane creek. One time we were out there I toted a third of a car carcass out on my xj roof, and six full 55 gallon bags of trash. Thats out of my own time which I cannot bill for either. My gas and my wear and tear on my rigs. From hot springs on the 421a trail we usually fill 3-4 bags, and clear the trail with chainsaws bc so many trees fall every year. They would have already permanently closed the gates if we weren't clearing it. The rangers say its ok then it is because they are the main ones that say this place is getting disrespected and we can't govern it. Cullowee had serious erosion problems, and the hunters were basically living out there cutting down trees building hunt camps shitting in the creeks etc. Completely different situation. But yes bleeding heart environmentalist are getting trails shut down and will continue to. I am a excellent steward, and respect no go zones. Show me a map that directly shows me that the mud holes are not part of the trail bc they are right there. It still baffles me that the rangers said it is ok and is legal! Why would they say that if it wasn't? I'm glad you do work to help keep these areas open. If you wanna police the use of public land then you should have been a cop or judge or ranger any of those careers would've been perfect. I ride where I know is legit and don't need to be told where to and where not to ride. I've never been citated or even had to be told by any official I was in the wrong area to be four wheeling. Thanks for your hard work but no sign, ranger a ok and a spot thats on the trail no worries bra
"As you can see the area with the mud holes has been open to use for well over 20 years. No one has ever put up a sign or gate or even an ounce of energy to stop people from using it. So I don't understand why you think I should not go there. The map you showed us is too small for you or any else to determine whether or not the mud holes are on it or not. I sure wouldn't go there if I thought it wasn't legit but it seems legit too me. Last time we were out there a whole group of jeepers which represented tread lightly stickers about 12 trucks were bogging the mud holes out. They also said that the area was legit. The mud holes are legit they are also in a zone which will never cause any more harm or damage run off erosion etc. The rest of the trail however does cause runoff even in the dryest of conditions, and all the creek crossings. If you are such a steward maybe you wouldn't be fording flooding creeks in your seo fj because that is horrible for the environment just saying not so cool and that could really tinkle of environmentalist enough to get that zone shut down."
well said...period.
smoky cruiser Tail Gunner
Posts : 656 Points : 5487 Join date : 2012-01-19 Age : 44 Location : weaverville nc
Subject: no i'm good Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:37 pm
I am glad to hear I'm not the only one who thinks its legit. But any how lets get on to new horizons. I'm happy to be an ncfj member and hope to be able to make a meet soon. I spoke with pslamp another asheville member and hope to be helping him install a 3 inch rough country next sunday. He is stoked to be a new member and look forwards to wheeling with him soon. I also have connected with snake eyes. Hes looking to meet up too. Any other Asheville/ area members hit us up text call or pm Colin (828)423-1440 Thanks guys.
Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:08 pm
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