***Advisory*** Richlands/Penley Rd Watauga NC

David B wrote:

Ok, update....Heard back from Caldwell County Sheriffs department today. They consulted their 911 coordinator and basically, the part of the road that is "developed" is in Caldwell County, and of course is public access. Where the road "ends" (look at Google maps) is, I guess where the "trail" begins and most of that is in Watauga County, so I was referred to the Watauga County GIS website for further information. What can be gathered fron the Watauga GIS site is that ALL the land along the "old road" is private property. I called the Watauga County Sheriff department and I am still waiting to hear back from them.

----------------------

I went one step further and have a friend who has a close friend who is an officer with Blowing Rock PD and asked their advice. Here is what I found out from BRPD:

" ******** spoke to one of the other BRPD officers who used to have a Jeep he would take offroad (yea I know). Here's what he said: "####### says it's still technically a county road, but there's posted private property all along the road.................."


----------------------

So....things are getting a little clearer...The more I dig, the more this looks like it is still considered a "county road" However, nowhere at all is it ok to leave the trail. Leaving the trail at any point, is considered trespassing on privately owned land. Also, from what I am reading, there may be some unsavory activity and characters that may be lurking back along the trail, so no one should EVER travel alone...

Thanks for all the leg work. I advise that you do NOT take what is on the GIS website as gospel. GIS data is approximate and won't hold up for squat in a legal situation.

bigdogdewey2 wrote:

honestly it sounds like if there "WAS" a road at any point in time then there still is a road. Ive never heard of any level of government selling off or giving back roads to private owners. as far as the "play" areas its simple...dont play. The road itself is fun enough as it is.

Governments don't often abandon roads but it does happen.

Roads will more often be 'forgotten' than abandoned. 'Forgotten' roads that are then found really can be a PITA if you are representing the land owner.

I deal with old roads fairly often, and GIS daily. I've been able to travel some 'nearly forgotten' roads in SC/GA/NC that were flat out awesome - more so b/c no one else knew about them. Many of these were later abandoned by the government. They are often abandoned because the city/co/local government discovers that they now have a new liability as far as maintenance costs, and other liability exposures, so they say "heck with this, the landowner can have it back." especially if the road does not provide any needed access for the government.

I know from doing some surveying work years ago that in many states there is legal precedent for private property owners to reclaim abandoned right of ways if they can show they have been actively maintaining the property in question, and if the easement is adjoining their property with no clear physical boundary such as a fence. I remember an example of this involved a resident who had extended his backyard into an old abandoned alleyway decades ago. He went to the city and was granted the additional land because he maintained it as part of his yard and had done so for years. I believe he had to get his neighbor to sign a waiver that they didn't want to dispute the area in question. But had he not been maintaining the piece of property I think he would likely have had to split the plot with his neighbor and redraw a joining property line in the middle of the alleyway.

Anyway, the point is that in some cases a private property owner can demonstrate legal possession to an abandoned easement or right of way if they show active ongoing maintenance.

In this case, I think the following points bear consideration:
1. Everyone drives his/her own vehicle at their own risk and liability at all times. There are no protections from legal actions regarding trespassing just because you were with a group or saw some information online and decided to join in the fun.
2. Legal disputes of any kind regardless of outcome are BAD for the reputation of the club, and sport in general, and as such should be avoided at all costs.
3. Trespassing onto private property is always risky. Trespassing on private property in the backwoods and mountains of North Carolina is damn near suicidal considering that most locals in the remote parts of the state are very sensitive to their privacy and often carry firearms and/or banjos. (Get the point - Do not mess with these folks)
4. Often times access to private property can be requested along with a reasonable amount of grease for the wheels. (i.e. Money for the owner in exchange for access) When/if confronted by an angry property owner, never argue with them. Apologize sincerely, agree to immediately leave and never return and then actually leave. But sometimes a phone call to ask permission to enter the area along with an offer to compensate will do wonders to both gain the desired access but also to gain a friend to the sport for the future.

Finally I'd just say, remember that just because you have a fancy truck, a map and a cell phone signal doesn't mean you are immune from the wrath of an angry local determined to put a stop to your trouble making on his mountain. Tread lightly, but also tread cautiously.
My $.02

Up here in the mountains people are no more sketchy than in Chapel Hill Durham raliegh. I have had gun shots let off several times in the triangle 4 wheeling, even over on poole rd in 98 some let a shotgun off repeatedly when we were out there. That road is legit and if you stay on the trail the owners have 0 legal right to complain. It is highly unlikely to have a land owner shoot at you. If they are out in the woods they will have a gun (bc they are scared of running into a group of men on atvs or trucks and wanna protect themselves) That said it is always a good idea to bring a rifle or pistol any where you are remote, and may need protection etc. Respect their areas stay on trail and no worries. That one gentleman probably is moonshining or growing pot and is nervous about all the traffic back near his crops.

FJerYuri wrote:

I know from doing some surveying work years ago that in many states there is legal precedent for private property owners to reclaim abandoned right of ways if they can show they have been actively maintaining the property in question, and if the easement is adjoining their property with no clear physical boundary such as a fence. I remember an example of this involved a resident who had extended his backyard into an old abandoned alleyway decades ago. He went to the city and was granted the additional land because he maintained it as part of his yard and had done so for years. I believe he had to get his neighbor to sign a waiver that they didn't want to dispute the area in question. But had he not been maintaining the piece of property I think he would likely have had to split the plot with his neighbor and redraw a joining property line in the middle of the alleyway.

Anyway, the point is that in some cases a private property owner can demonstrate legal possession to an abandoned easement or right of way if they show active ongoing maintenance.

In this case, I think the following points bear consideration:
1. Everyone drives his/her own vehicle at their own risk and liability at all times. There are no protections from legal actions regarding trespassing just because you were with a group or saw some information online and decided to join in the fun.
2. Legal disputes of any kind regardless of outcome are BAD for the reputation of the club, and sport in general, and as such should be avoided at all costs.
3. Trespassing onto private property is always risky. Trespassing on private property in the backwoods and mountains of North Carolina is damn near suicidal considering that most locals in the remote parts of the state are very sensitive to their privacy and often carry firearms and/or banjos. (Get the point - Do not mess with these folks)
4. Often times access to private property can be requested along with a reasonable amount of grease for the wheels. (i.e. Money for the owner in exchange for access) When/if confronted by an angry property owner, never argue with them. Apologize sincerely, agree to immediately leave and never return and then actually leave. But sometimes a phone call to ask permission to enter the area along with an offer to compensate will do wonders to both gain the desired access but also to gain a friend to the sport for the future.

Finally I'd just say, remember that just because you have a fancy truck, a map and a cell phone signal doesn't mean you are immune from the wrath of an angry local determined to put a stop to your trouble making on his mountain. Tread lightly, but also tread cautiously.
My $.02

Very well said. Advice taken here.

Did the Watauga Sheriff's Office ever get back with you?

FiJiKrawl wrote:

Did the Watauga Sheriff's Office ever get back with you?

Nope, I will be calling again Monday.

I am getting more information that this is indeed a State abandoned road, technically public, however, the road itself has deviated onto private property since its abandonment 50 years ago. I would love to see us work woth property owners to settle this and make it an undisputed trail. I am thinking we reach out and offer "trail cleanup/improvement" days, maybe once a quarter? Just a thought....would take a good deal of effort.

David i was going to PM you with this exact idea a couple of days ago and got busy with something else...since we are in the process of becoming "tread lightly" certified this would be a great idea ...i think if we could clean the trail do work to the trail clearly mark the trail and that sort of thing and show how it could benefit the "private property owners". i think it would be a good idea too to offer a meet and greet with the property owners too...

I know that you already said that but that is what i was thinking a couple of days ago and i didnt want to lose my train of thought...

While this sounds like the right thing to do, I think you may be kidding yourselves in thinking it would be possible. There are quite a few land owners along the trail. Even if you were able to contact them all, getting them all to agree on letting wheelers pass through will no doubt be impossible. No matter what you offer, some will never agree to allowing people to drive through.

And that in itself is the bigger problem. You're now giving them the false belief that they own/control the road (like the person that emailed David), when in fact they don't. I have a house with an alley behind it. It's a public road, but I get angry when people that don't live on our block drive through it. If they stopped to ask me if they can drive through it when they want, I would say no - and expect not to see them do it again, even though I have no legal right to stop them if they do.

Cleaning up the trail is certainly always a good idea, and trying to let the land owners know what you're doing is a good step - but in my opinion it would be a bad idea to try to meet with them and let them have an opinion on allowing access. Especially since you won't be able to control the 98% of the other folks that ride through the trail doing what they please. The land owners would blame you/us, because somehow they'll think you are now responsible for everyone that rides through the trail.

I definitely agree with this. Even if we cleaned up the trail, planted trees, and washed the river critters certain landowners would never want us back there. It is far less about environmental preservation and more about better hunting grounds, sense pf privacy, and possibly questionable activity.

With this said being good stewards of land is the right thing to do. Not because the landowners will like us, but because it is what responsible offroad enthusiast should do. We should make sure to never leave trash, spray paint rocks/trees, etc.

Having a clean up day would be great. I know I would pitch in. However this should just be something we do. If we want more recognition of good will then we should alert/coordinate with the sheriff's office. Nick is right on that coordinating with the land owner's would further their belief that they have deniability of passage on the trail.

I am doing more followup this evening. I agree with Brian and Madtoy. However, from pics and videos, we are also giving these people fodder for their argument, just the same as going to and communicating with them would as well. I agree that we do not want to imply that we are cleaning up private property. I merely meant that we could make it known that we were actively willing to clean up the PUBLIC areas. Also a point was made in a second email from the landowner that he is tired of "navigating rutted out areas of the road", areas that he has to use to access his property. Also, he made a point that a big reason the landowners are upset is all the horseplay that goes on in the creek causes issues down stream. He also pointed out that only "off roaders cross the creek where there is a perfectly good bridge" and that really angers the locals. I'm sure we can all see his point.

So would you guys say Richland Rd is ok to travel as long as you dont explore off the road? Going to be in Blowing Rock this weekend and wanting to explore a little.

I would have no problem driving through there. Best to stay on the path though.

As Brian said I would stay on the trail did not venture off. And it's always a good idea to have somebody with you

definetly dont go alone..but i would also say just stay on the trail....the trail itself is enough fun to not have to worry about going off the trail....

Good deal. I'll probably hold off on hitting it this weekend then because I don't think anyone else will be in the area this weekend

I am bumping this thread.

Please remember that if you choose to drive this trail there have been advisories regarding staying on the legal route, being mindful of private property and land owners, and not driving up the streams.

Travel is at your own risk.